Curse

Miral · Aug 12, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Compare Wielder's Strike to any skill with similar payload, you'll find it was quite out of line. Here's a quick challenge for you: Go count the number of skills that do over 100 damage, of any sort, with a cast time shorter than 2 seconds. Now, go count the number of skills that do over 100 damage that cost 5 energy.

and how many ignore 25% or even all armor, which wielder's strike does not? not to mention half of that is conditional.

Riotgear · Aug 12, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

and how many ignore 25% or even all armor, which wielder's strike does not? not to mention half of that is conditional.

The conditionality is a joke with Vital Weapon, a buff you'd want on your whole team anyway. Wielder's does almost as much to a 60AL as Lightning Orb anyway, the question is whether or not the armor penetration against harder targets is worth taking twice as long to cast, spending three times as much energy on it, and risking having it dodged (I'm betting the answer to that is "no").

If you want armor penetration or ignoring, let's see.... Wielder's is 134 damage, against 100AL that goes down to 67. A skill that does 87 damage with 25% penetration will do 67 to 100AL.

So, since Wielder's Strike is obviously fair, let's find its peers even if your caller is dumb enough to select a ranger as the spike target every time: Find any ability that does 67 armor-ignoring damage, 87 armor-penetrating damage, or 134 elemental damage. Now count the number that are 1 second cast or faster, and cost 5 energy or free (i.e. signet).

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Element...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Monk_sk...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Necroma...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Mesmer_...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Assassi...uick_reference

Ready, go!

manitoba1073 · Aug 12, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Try reading Riotgear's post again. It deals with disrupting the spike, and how it is a lot easier said than done.

I want to ask you something, have you actually played against Rit Spike before? If so, you should be able to tell me exactly what you did to beat them - "stop the spike" isn't enough information.

I have played against them and have stopped them with taht very same build along with most caster spikes thats been around a little while. Im not the one whos having the probs I gave 1 char outa 8. If you are still having enough probs with that. Im not gonna hold your hands. How about trying some other tactic besides a 1,2,3,4 build they work wonders. And yet if the PvErs thought the same as you guys are thinking we'd never have created the 55 build or even be able to do like this were an ele isnt supposed to solo grasps.

yesitsrob · Aug 12, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

I have played against them and have stopped them with taht very same build along with most caster spikes thats been around a little while. Im not the one whos having the probs I gave 1 char outa 8. If you are still having enough probs with that. Im not gonna hold your hands. How about trying some other tactic besides a 1,2,3,4 build they work wonders.

If I was Rit Spiking, here's some ways how I'd not get decimated by your Ranger in certain scenarios.

I get hit by the Dual Shot + Nightmare + Ignite Arrows hit:

I think, eek, that was mean. Then heal it knowing that won't happen again for a while because Dual Shot has a relatively long recharge. If monking and I see it coming I'd attempt to catch it with a Shielding Hands perhaps, negating the damage from Ignite + any of the Dual Shot Damage that doesn't become Life Steal (if there happens to be any)

I see you use Choking Gas:
I a) wait the pittance of it's duration out before spiking or b) spread out.
I'd likely do B unless in a particullary tight spot.
I notice Barrage + Splinter.
Someone will drop a Protective was Kaoli. (I'm pretty sure they have that) - then I'd expect everyone to spread out a bit. And to generally never get close to each other again. Alternatively we could ignore the damage and wait for a Life to die.
I get a spike skill D-Shotted.
I'll still have enough of a spike to kill whoever I want.

How would you handle the above? Also - how would you handle the fact I have 2 people with Weapon of Warding, I'm pretty sure a Displacement, a Union and 8 semi healers. Perhaps a Team Build as opposed to a Single build would really give us an idea on how you'd ideally beat Rit Spike. Perhaps I could find 7 people to Rit Spike with me and you can put your theories to the test? Obviously you'd have to find some people too but I'm interested in seeing exactly what would happen.

Miral · Aug 12, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

combine any non-exhaustion ele nuke with GoLE and bam, super powerful nuke for little or no energy. plus eles have a lot more energy to begin with. plus, and this is a big one, balance isn't all about direct damage.

plus, armor bonuses make the final damage number difference even greater. with the right skills and equipment a character can have over 200 armor.

I'll tell you what, if changing skills directly is the only way anet can come up with to stop a FOTM build, how about this for wielder's strike:

Wielder's Strike - 5e, 1c, 5r - Target foe is struck for 15...51 lightning damage. If you are under the effects of a weapon Spell, you deal an additional 15...51 armor-ignoring damage and this Spell causes exhaustion.

similar things can be done for other skills that were changed.

Sab · Aug 12, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

I have played against them and have stopped them with taht very same build along with most caster spikes thats been around a little while. Im not the one whos having the probs I gave 1 char outa 8. If you are still having enough probs with that. Im not gonna hold your hands. How about trying some other tactic besides a 1,2,3,4 build they work wonders.

I never said I had problems beating Rit spike. I can tell you exactly how I beat it with the balanced build I usually run. But I want to know if *you* can explain it because, from the way you're responding, you have zero experience in HA and you're talking completely out of your ass.

So far you've only said to "stop the spike" and to use the Choking Gas-Barrage build. How is one CG, which is up only half the time, going to consistently disrupt multiple spikers whose spike skills are 1s and 3/4s? (the spike is still fatal even if one Rit doesn't spike) Or are you hoping to get the <1/2 second casts on the N/A? Not to mention what are the rest of your teammates doing to punch through 6 healers with defensive spirits, and often a N/A with constant Spellbreaker? Please explain.

By the way, I'm not asking for advice. Like I said, I already know how to beat Rit spike. I'm asking you to prove that you can too. Either: prove your credibility by explaining how your build beats Rit spike, or: admit you've been talking complete trash all this time because you have no experience in HA.

Frank Dudenstein · Aug 12, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

I find it hard to believe how many people don't get this (and how many people will spout about things they have very little experience with).

OF COURSE Ritspike could be countered. ANYTHING can be countered. But the problem with overpowered builds is this: when one build vastly overpowers everything else ... EVERYONE runs either the overpowered build or the counter. That leads to extreme boredom ... people would rather quit than play in that scenario.

Here's the thing ... in PvE there are 1000+ builds you can use to beat an area. In fact I thought half (all?) the fun was coming up with new builds...

However in PvP ... if you restrict the viable builds to an overpowered one ... and it's direct counter ... you have just ruined the format ... goodbye players....

Do you see why balance changes ned to be pvp-centric?

makosi · Aug 12, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

People run melees not because they're stubborn, or because they're 'in'. They run melees because they work, they have the highest DPS, and because they kill things.

How exactly are you going to kill people with casters? Oh, countdown spike and repeat.

Casters needn't only do spike damage - that's another example of stubborness amongst the community. However it is easy to pursue and chosen by most and is effective (see Rit. Spike). High-end GvG players pursue 3-2-1 spike tactics too, usually with an Eviscerate/Conjure warrior providing the deep wound which is a critical part of most spikes.

Everyone is aware that melee "kills things" and it is sensible for people to preemp it and bring melee-hate like Spirit of Failure, Faintheartedness, Blinding Surge because the threat is so great. Neither of these skills render melee useless for the duration of the battle and conditions/hexes can be removed.

arcanemacabre · Aug 12, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

I can figure up 193 Armor...

Ranger/Assassin

+70 armor base +30 Elemental
+5 Sword/Axe/Spear +8 Shield
+80 Feigned Neutrality

= 193

That's about as high as I can figure... highly useless, though, but yeah.

Oops, +2 more vs. elemental on that sword/axe/spear... so 195

Oooh, wait, one more... you can have +10 vs. lightning (since we're talking rit spike, here) on the shield...

so yeah, 205 - OMG over 200!

EDIT: Just had to add this - It's over nine thousaaaaaand! :P

nugzta · Aug 12, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Meh even I can get it "better".

W/E
80+ 20 (vs phys) + 20 (vs elemental insignia, req 13) + 16 (shield) + 5 (weapon) + 68 (kinetic armor) = 209 AL (spam stone daggers)
W/A
80+ 20 (vs phys) + 20 (vs elemental insignia, req 13) + 16 (shield) + 5 (weapon) + 80 (feigned Neutrality) = 221 AL (deadly paradox + feign)

40 armor is conditional.

If you gonna post these, it's a big LOL from me.

Avarre · Aug 12, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Casters needn't only do spike damage - that's another example of stubborness amongst the community. However it is easy to pursue and chosen by most and is effective (see Rit. Spike). High-end GvG players pursue 3-2-1 spike tactics too, usually with an Eviscerate/Conjure warrior providing the deep wound which is a critical part of most spikes.

Ok, so how do casters kill without spiking. The correct answer, in case you were thinking of it, is not fire aoe/sf spam, because that is terribad.

If you think high-end GvG warriors build up to 3-2-1 spike, then you're not really that correct, though not entirely wrong in all cases. Spikes are called usually as convergence of damage to provide pressure and force monks to prot and respond, rather than a waiting build-up for a single burst of damage. This is because of the DPS capability of melees, in that they can train targets, combo separately to disrupt/damage multiple targets, converge to break a single target, and so on - a far more complex and multidimensional form of offense than simply counting down and using all your skills on one target.

Hollow Gein · Aug 12, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Hmmmmm...always found the Mesmer skill, Mantra of Lightning, quite useful.

moriz · Aug 12, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

mmhmm, and what are you going to do if you face a guild without lightning damage? that skill just became useless.

what many people don't get is that GW cannot just be a simple game of rock-paper-scissors. if i want to play that kind of game, i'll just find some kid to play rock-paper-scissors and save on my internet and electricity bills. GW needs flexible counters, counters that will work against a certain tactic/build with some player skill added in, and won't be totally useless if you don't meet that tactic/build.

examples of inflexible counters: divert hexes, mantra of *elemental damage of your choice*, purge signet.

examples of flexible counters: diversion, interruption of any kind, divine spirit+deny hexes, restore conditions, light of deliverance.

to promote a healthy pvp game, anet needs to balance the skills so that flexible counters, combined with some player skills, can counter the majority of builds out there.

as for exhaustion of ritualists:

other than ritualists, there was no other profession that can provide good healing, good protection, good melee buff, and good damage output. in fact, rits were the only profession to be able to put them all on the same bar, leading to the ritspike mess we had before. now with exhaustion, at least they will have to think when and how they shit spirits, and when and how they blast targets with their ridiculous damage spells.

i'd rather have the exhaustion and low cost/recharge, knowing that if i really want something to die, i can spam it and pay the price later, than having high energy cost and recharge and not having that option available.

in other words, the rit exhaustion change benefit skilled players, and punish the bad players. as it should be.

Neo-LD · Aug 12, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

And the skills don't promote skill-less play. quite the opposite, actually. the skills are fairly useless if not played right. played right, thats skill aint it?

This is the whole argument, right here folks. In case you missed it, this guy doesnt understand why Ritualist tactics like spirit-laying and caster-spiking promote skill-less play. I will venture further and assume that many people here dont even understand why this game should discourage skill-less play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

I'm still waiting for people against ritualists to post what they think skill is.

Oh really? Great, thats my favorite topic to philosophize on. I suppose I'll start from the beginning:

The usual tablestakes:

Every serious game (which is what Guild Wars was originally meant, and still has the potential to be) needs to be balanced and
reward player skill.

Why?

Because the point of every competitive game is for players to prove that they are better than other players / the best. This is only accomplished when it is possible for good players to distinguish themselves from other players through superior play.

How?

Ideally, there would be a direct, linear relationship between the difficulty of any given strategy or tactic, and the effectiveness of that tactic. A skill that rewards player skill becomes more powerful based on the skill level of the player using it.

Examples of this:

- Distracting Shot: A poor player will fumble and not accomplish anything with this skill. A mediocre player will be able to disable some enemy skills, but usually not very important ones, and only ones with easy cast times to catch. An excellent player will be able to disable nearly any skill he wants through superior reflex, yomi, and awareness.

- Diversion: Again, a poor player will not accomplish anything with this skill. A mediocre player may accomplish something, but will probably only disable trivial skills, and his success will be very inconsistent due to the fact that he is living off of luck. An excellent player, through yomi and awareness, will be able to disable key skills on a regular basis, with little to no luck involved. He will also be able to combine it with other skills like Shame, Blackout, and Gale to deny large portions of casting time to opponents, opening windows for his teammates to capitalize on.

- Bull's Strike: A poor player will not accomplish anything with this skill. A mediocre player will only occaisionally be able to knock people down with it, and when he does it will usually not help him very much. An excellent player will be able to consistently knock people down, use the window created by the opening to score kills, and combine it with other skills like interrupts or other knockdowns in order to amplify its effectiveness.

How most Ritualists do not reward player skill:

- Spirit-laying: Any idiot can lay spirits. It is the most easy task in the game to just sit back and press 12345, summoning spirits to play the game for you. So it violates one principle of rewarding player skill (difficulty). Further, there is no way for spirit-laying to be played any better or worse from player to player, since the spirits are beyond player control. An 8 year old girl who has never played GW before, let alone played a spirit-pooper bar, could, with ~5 minutes of practice, play one just as effectively as the best player in the world. So it violates another principle of rewarding player skill (differentiation based on player skill).

- Caster-spiking: Spiking has one small merit in that it requires a little coordination between many players in order to pull off correctly. But sadly, thats as far as it goes. Upon close examination, what the members of any caster spike are doing is very easy (a violation) since 1) they are doing almost nothing of merit between spikes and 2) while 'coordination' may be an impressive word to tag it with, when you realize that all they are doing is hitting a couple buttons in time with a cadence, you realize that what they are doing is not impressive at all. Also, casterspiking doesnt lend itself well to differentiation by player skill. With ~15 minutes of practice, any semi-competent player who has never PvPed in his life could play a spiker just as well as the best player in the world.

Summation:

A serious competitive game must reward player skill by making sure that the most powerful tactics in the game are also the most challenging, and will only be powerful if employed in the correct manner by a skilled player. Powerful tactics must appeal to one or more of the main facets of player skill:

- Reflexes
- Awareness
- Timing
- Multitasking
- Appraisal

Hollow Gein · Aug 12, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

mmhmm, and what are you going to do if you face a guild without lightning damage? that skill just became useless.

My fault, should of stated that Mantra of Lightning could be used as a possible counter to the rit spike.

Wildi · Aug 12, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I solo farmed rit spike before it was nerfed

Gebo · Aug 12, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

- Spirit-laying: Any idiot can lay spirits. It is the most easy task in the game to just sit back and press 12345, summoning spirits to play the game for you. So it violates one principle of rewarding player skill (difficulty). Further, there is no way for spirit-laying to be played any better or worse from player to player, since the spirits are beyond player control. An 8 year old girl who has never played GW before, let alone played a spirit-pooper bar, could, with ~5 minutes of practice, play one just as effectively as the best player in the world. So it violates another principle of rewarding player skill (differentiation based on player skill).

This tells me that you play a lot of low-end pvp. in higher forms and even in most pve, positioning and timing are key. put your spirit too far away and gg, its useless. put your spirit too close and gg, it was just killed in 2 seconds flat. cast spirits when a decent ranger is within longbow range of you and gg, it was interupted and put on a seriously long recharge

The closest things to skilless play I can find are: 1. dervishes in general, and 2. spammy or prot monks.

but then, in skillful play, if a group of people becomes considerably better than another group, the skills they chose are nerfed, whether they are overpowered skills, or if they are just better at using them.

and finally, not directly to you but in general, what is considered skilless in one build can actually be a cornerstone of a completely different skillful build.

moriz · Aug 12, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

actually, positioning spirits is not a matter of skill, but a matter of stupidity. only an idiot will consistantly make those positioning errors.

the fact that you believe prot monks are "skill-less" says to me that you haven't played pvp beyond RA. your comment about the way skills are balanced also suggest to me that you haven't played any balanced build, and played gimmicks for much of your GW playing career.

lastly, i'm going to say this: exhaustion is not handled by the profession. it's handled by the player. if the player can handle exhaustion, then whatever profession the player happens to be playing will be able to handle it too. if the player cannot handle exhaustion, not even the ele's energy pool will help.

Gebo · Aug 12, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

actually, positioning spirits is not a matter of skill, but a matter of stupidity. only an idiot will consistantly make those positioning errors.

the fact that you believe prot monks are "skill-less" says to me that you haven't played pvp beyond RA. your comment about the way skills are balanced also suggest to me that you haven't played any balanced build, and played gimmicks for much of your GW playing career.

lastly, i'm going to say this: exhaustion is not handled by the profession. it's handled by the player. if the player can handle exhaustion, then whatever profession the player happens to be playing will be able to handle it too. if the player cannot handle exhaustion, not even the ele's energy pool will help.

actually the only "gimmick" build I've played is the Touch Ranger. It's so much fun when less intelligent people don't make any attempt to stop it other than sitting there and hitting me with damage. and its funny because its so EASY to stop if they just try. oh yeah, and its also the one that hasn't been nerfed

nice try, though, really.
and I've played every form of PvP quite a bit except for hero battles because, well, that's really not just pvp, its ava (assassin vs assassin)

moriz · Aug 12, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

so in other words, you've experienced every reasonable pvp arena in gw, and still make such ungrounded statements about the game. what does it say about your intelligence and skill as a player?

my point still stands though: exhaustion is handled by the player, no the profession.